Posted by: Dale Eastman
« on: September 11, 2023, 01:21:35 PM »Quote from: SG 8 September 13:08
Many problems in the world are caused by obedience.
Soldiers obey orders to kill people, this has caused millions of deaths.
Police obey orders to arrest people, not for causing harm to others, but for trying to earn money without permission or trying to feed homeless people without permission.
Quote from: 8 September 15:53
Many of the solutions in the world are also caused by obedience.
Soldiers engaged in a defensive struggle need obedience to maintain the ranks and execute strategy.
Police refusing to take a bribe and arrest someone who caused harm to another is being obedient.
The issue isn't obedience, but the values to which one is obedient too.
Quote from: 8 September 20:27
That last sentence is your saving grace for a comment I otherwise would take exception to.
Quote from: 9 September 21:48
"Soldiers engaged in a defensive struggle need obedience to maintain the ranks and execute strategy."
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That would not be necessary but for the obedient on the offensive side.
Quote from: 11 September 12:23
Yes it would. There are plenty of people who are self-motivated to engage in aggression without blind obedience, for a variety of reasons.
Too many libertarians believe that the state alone drives the worst impulses of mankind. It does not. It does amplify the worst impulses, but man is inherently fallen.
Quote from: 11 September 12:25
The balance between liberty and order is real and it is important. I believe in the superiority of private governance because I believe it believe a market for security is better than a state-monopoly for security, but a free society would not be one without obedience and force.
Quote from: 11 September 14:20
Are you up for an articulate discussion regarding our differences in ideology?
Quote from: 11 September 15:01
"Too many libertarians believe that the state alone drives the worst impulses of mankind."
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Obviously not, it is the worst impulses of humans that are freed from personal consequences when acting through the state. Mass homicide is excused or even desired when it is effected through the state. A similar pattern occurs when mobs engage in violence when individuals engage in violence without personal consequence.
Individuals may be impressed into military service, involuntary servitude, when done by the collective through the state.
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Obedience to what is always the question. A moral person is obedient to his conscience. But obviously, that's not the obedience I was talking about.
One cannot be moral by surrendering their own values to others through obedience to others who do not make an appeal to those values.
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