JP

[Dale Eastman]

And watch how fast the Anarchists form their own Government telling everyone what they can and cannot do when someone with a bigger Gang comes and starts taking their chickens etc etc etc etc.

JH A Government that enforces Natural Laws with a Strong Civil Court the enforces Contracts and Private Property are essential to a Free-Market.

Natural Laws are things like Murder, Rape, Assualt, Theft basically anything doing physical harm to someone else.
Anything that the individual can use Force up to and including Deadly Force to stop a person from doing harm to them or others we can have Government do that.

JH Every form of government relies on violence and theft because the People are Lazy they thought since the Government did a pretty good job at finding a stopping that Killer or Theif a legitamate function of Government we should just have the Government do everything.

I live for comments like yours.
Government is a criminal syndicate that extorts people for money and control. PROVE ME WRONG.

JH If you want to take the Tax route, Sales Taxes are not theft they are volontary and if the People stopped wanting Government to save them from every little thing and care for them from cradle to grave those Sales Taxes would be so little no one would care.

Dale Eastman Yes the Government the vast majority of the people want today is a Criminal Syndicate because most everyone wants the government to care for them from cradle to grave.
Government is FORCE so you do not let Government do things that do not require Force.

JH Why do you think I am talking about or defending the Government we have today???
As I said all you anarchists that think there is some no goverment Utopia will get togeather and form your own Government real fast as soon as the evil that will always exist finds you and it will find you.
Government did not invent evil the people got Lazy and let evil take over their Government.

JH OK so in your no Government Utopia how are Murders and Thiefs dealt with?

➽ Why do you think I am talking about or defending the Government we have today???

Okay. You have my attention. Why are you defending a criminal syndicate?

Dale Eastman Same question for you.
OK so in your no Government Utopia how are Murders and Thiefs dealt with?

JH And if you cannot personaly defende yourself from the threat?
This is where all you anarchist lose it when presented with Real World issues that your system has no real answers for.

I'm not the one calling this possible future a utopia.

You didn't answer my question. So I'll ask a second time: Why are you defending a criminal syndicate?

➽ And if you cannot personaly defende yourself from the threat?

Why would that be the case? Gun grabber laws?

Dale Eastman
All of history pretty much eludes you doesn't it.

Answering simple questions eludes you.

Third inquiry: Why are you defending a criminal syndicate?

Dale Eastman
Do not support any gun grabber laws of any kind but there was a time in U.S. History where there were no Gun Laws at all and there was still plenty of real crime and the funny thing all the small towns that could have easily gone with the anarchist way did not.

I am not defending the criminal syndicate the people call Government today.

Dale Eastman
Government is like a Garden. You cannot just go out and put seeds in the ground and walk away and think it will all be OK.
You have to constntly pull the weeds and water it and care for it if you are to have any kind of garden.

Good. Maybe we can have a productive discussion after all. So, temporarily, I will retract part of my question and change it: Why are you defending government?

Going by the anarchist theory since the garden will have weeds we should not have any Gardens.

Second inquiry. Why are you defending government?

Why have you not answered the question of how you will deal with all the legitamate issues Humans form Governments to deal with?
You can talk about Guns and Personal Responsiblity all you want but you have to sleep at some point in time and a crazy thing about the bad guys of the world they will wait for you to go to sleep.
Use what ever word you want put people are going to ban togeather to protect each other and their property.

Because I asked my question first.

And I do actually have some answers to your question. The problem is "government" gets in the way. So I'm holding off on giving you the straight forward answers) your question deserves.

I'll try to make it easy for you.

Are you defending "government"?

Checking to make sure I correctly interpreted what you wrote that I read.

Dale Eastman
Go down to South America and find the most isolated tribe that has never had any other contact with other humans and they will have a form of Government. There will be a Chief there will be Elders etc etc and they will all meet a decide what the rest of the tribe will do or move to or defend against.

So I'll ask this question a second time:
Are you defending "government"?

You are not answering the question because there is no place or time in all of history that you can point to that people did not naturally come togeather and from a government to protect themselves.
The problem is not the Government the problem is all the people that want Government to do everything Government should not and is really incapable of doing.

Third inquiry. Are you defending government?

Dale Eastman
I am defending a Government that the people keep limited to doing what Government is actually for.
And just like the Garden the Government must be weeded all the time if the people want any hope of it doing what it is suppose to be doing.

Thank you.

Now I ask, What, specifically, do you mean by "government"? Along with, what, specifically do I mean by "government"?

What, specifically, are its traits, properties, attributes, & characteristics?

Dale Eastman
Well since you did not seem to real all my comments where I did answer that questio a couple of times.
Just for you
"A Government that enforces Natural Laws with a Strong Civil Court the enforces Contracts and Private Property are essential to a Free-Market."

Where does this government get its alleged authority to do these things?

Dale Eastman
That would be the same place it gets it now, from the people.
And that is why Government is not the problem the problem is all the people that want the Government to do everything it should not and cannot do.
We can have a Government that hunts down and catches Muderers because all reasonable people can agree that murder is bad and we do not want it to happen to us, but we do not want Government doing healthcare because reasonable people can have many different opinions on what their personal healthcare should be.

What, specifically, is "the people"?
How does this thing called government get this alleged authority from "the people"?

Dale Eastman
Where does your alleged authority come from to defend yourself from someone trying to do you and/or your family harm?

Were would your alleged authority come from to hire someone to defend you and your family?

Apples and oranges. My authority to defend myself comes from my being alive. If I hire someone to defend me and mine, that defender has my authority and a contract.

And ONLY that defender.

A second defender does NOT have that contractual authority.

So I'll wait while you try to connect MY authority to government to protect me.

We can continue tomorrow.

Dale Eastman
So how many people do you have the alleged authority to hire to defend you and can I also join in on that contract and help you pay it to defend me also?

I have authority to hire as many security contractors as I can afford. To keep this discussion simple, I'm choosing none. Zero. Nada.

Please correct me if I misinterpret your intent.

You wish to portray government as a protector of the people?

[Dale Eastman]

Dale Eastman
Ok you are living in what ever your idea of the perfect Anarchist world is you come home to find your family Murdered.
How do you deal with that very real crime in your perfect Anarchist world?

And what gives the security contractors you might hire the authority to do anything?

Lemme rephrase the question you ignored:

Is it your intent to portray government as a protector of the people?

[Dale Eastman]

Dale Eastman
And the question you ignor
Ok you are living in what ever your idea of the perfect Anarchist world is you come home to find your family Murdered.
How do you deal with that very real crime in your perfect Anarchist world?

You are the only one here blathering on about perfect worlds.

Let me state this plainly: At this time I do not wish to discuss maybe and might be.

I am only interested in examining what actually is.

Third inquiry: Is it your intent to portray government as a protector of the people?

[Dale Eastman]

Yep that is the question that sends all anarchists running LOL

Dale Eastman
Murder along with other real crimes are not what if, or maybe they happen every single day all over the world and if your systems has no answers for how that will be delt with you are going to have a very hard time selling it to the masses.

➽ Yep that is the question that sends all anarchists running LOL

Yep. That's the topic that sends all statists running.

Actually looking at what presently exists.

Fourth inquiry: Is it your intent to portray government as a protector of the people?

➽ Murder along with other real crimes [...] happen every single day all over the world and if your systems has no answers for how that will be delt with you are going to have a very hard time selling it to the masses.

Well let's look at how YOUR present system deals with crimes all over the world.

Do you agree that somebody saying give me your money or I will hurt you is extortion?

Dale Eastman
So only I must answer questions but not you. LOL
No delusions of Authority there LOL

Dale Eastman
"Is it your intent to portray government as a protector of the people?"
The intent would be to see if you have an answer to the question.
Obviously you have no answer. Or no answer that would not involve some kind of authority over someone else.

I am trying to understand your thinking. I am trying to find out just exactly what you do know about the present reality.

Second inquiry: Do you agree that somebody saying give me your money or I will hurt you is extortion?

[Dale Eastman]

Dale Eastman
Still cannot answer the question.
They say the person asking the questions is in control....
Your constant questioning me but will never answer just one of mine looks like you are a person that wants all the control or Authority over others. LOL

Dale Eastman
But just to stroke your own authoritarian ego I already answered the Tax question so just go back and reread it.

Very easy to do.

And I quote:
"JH If you want to take the Tax route, Sales Taxes are not theft they are volontary and if the People stopped wanting Government to save them from every little thing and care for them from cradle to grave those Sales Taxes would be so little no one would care."

Your turn. Quote the words of me asking you "the Tax question"

Dale Eastman
Volontary Taxes are not extortion you have a choice.

"Do you agree that somebody saying give me your money or I will hurt you is extortion?"

Dale Eastman
But still avoiding the question how is very real crime delt with in the Anarchist system.

You made a claim. I challenged you to prove your claim.

Quote the words of me asking you "the Tax question"

[Dale Eastman]

Dale Eastman
It is your turn to answer my question.

Dale Eastman
You keep bringing up stuff we can both agree on.
But you seem to keep bringing that stuff up as if it will get me to accept your no answer at all to my question.
On avg there are 44 Murders a day in the U.S. alone how does the Anarchist way of life deal with that very real problem without some kind of Authority?

Fifth inquiry: Is it your intent to portray government as a protector of the people?

So, you understand government is NOT a protector of the people. The deity of government you worship is unable or unwilling to keep "44 Murders a day in the U.S. alone" from happening.

But then, cops have no duty to protect.

[Dale Eastman]

Dale Eastman
Once again you are not giving any other solution then what we have now. And I have lost count of how many times I have inquired on that one.
If you have a better way of dealing with the very real crimes that happen every day I truly want to hear it.
By your not answering the question I can only assume you have no answer or better way.

Concealed carry. Self protection starts with self.

Voluntaryists would be people who wish to live in a voluntary society.

Society means masses of individual humans. For without at least two individuals interacting, a Society does not exist. Society comes from Latin societatem (nominative societas) "fellowship, association, alliance, union, community," from socius "companion, ally,"

Do what you are told to do or they will hurt you. This is how EVERY government works. Past, present, or future. Every government ever, uses, has used, or will use extortion to control.

Not wanting to be extorted sure looks like wanting to be left alone to me. Not wanting to be threatened with death to force obedience sure looks like wanting to be left alone to me. If you know you want to be left alone and not threatened nor extorted, then I submit that you want to live in a Voluntary Society.

The members of a Voluntary Society would understand YDOMism and honor its precepts. YDOM means You Don't Own Me. Any five to eight year old child, who exclaims to another child, "Who made you the boss of me?" inherently understands YDOMism's basic "Don't tell me what to do!"

If we are all equals, then "Who made you the boss of me?" is the purpose of YDOMism.

In a voluntary society, there would be an understanding that nobody was born with authority over anybody else, thus attempts to act as owners of other people would be easily observable.

Alas, that is not the case I observe on this planet. Most do not understand that we live in a society that lets a select few act and rule others as if they own those others. In online discussions and observations, I've seen people strenuously, emphatically, and emotionally defending being owned. These people do not understand that they are arguing for their own treatment as slaves. These people do not have a clear view nor a clear understanding that nobody owns them.

Dale Eastman
"we live in a society that """lets""" a select few"
"Lets" is the real probem.
There is a small amount of Government Authority needed to deal with the real criminals that do not volunteer to not harm others and do not volunteer to just give up and admit they did it the problems start when the People "Let" the Government go beyond that.
But what is truly insane is thinking the very same people that created the Authoritarian Governments we have now will just all of a sudden treat each other with kindness and respect in the absence of any Government.
I will also comment on this
"If we are all equals, then "Who made you the boss of me?""
Little sad news for you Humans are not equal some are smarter, stronger, weaker, more energy etc etc etc and every time I cross a bridgh or go up 50 stories in an elevator and they do not collapse and we all die I thank God that Civil Engineer is way superior to me in math.
In fact the only place people are suppose to be equal is in the thing you do not want the eyes of the Government and we cannot even achieve it there.
Like the Communist the Anarchist thinks if they can just remove the Human element from the equation it will all be good.
Even in the "Peaceful" Protests last summer very little Government was attacked but plenty of private businesses were looted and burned what gave those people the Authority to do that to those private individuals?

Ok you are living in what ever your idea of the perfect Anarchist world is you come home to find your family Murdered.
How do you deal with that very real crime in your perfect Anarchist world?"

You live in your idea of perfect government. You come home and you find your family murdered. And the murderers are the gang called government.

How do you deal with that very real crime in your perfect statist world?

Once you give me the answer to that, the answer to your question will also be obvious.

You talk as if state monopoly on violence is NOT the cause of most crime in the world, including murder.

You talk as if government is the protector of rights, not main violator of rights.

You ask me questions, but never answer my questions yourself.

If you don't have the "authority" to extort your neighbor (levy taxes) or make arbitrary rules (laws) for your neighbor, where does the government get its "authority" from?

Do you realize that, governments around the world mass murdered more than 263 million of their own citizens last century alone? That was more than what governments have killed of other governments' people in two world wars, around another 200 million.

So governments killed almost half a billion people last century. That was much more than any private homicide in the same period.

Whatever methods of organization and protection you propose against a tyrannical government, can also be employed against any private murderers or criminals.

There is no need for any state monopoly on violence at any stage. In fact, once there is a state monopoly on violence, there is no justice in the matters of state vs citizen. Citizens have no recourse when government violates their rights.

You can never call the cops on the tax collector and jail them for running an extortion racket. Since they all belong to the same gang of extortionists.
https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM

I'll tell you what won't happen in an anarchy to murderers: They won't be given the machinery of the state so they can mass murder and get away with it.
That is only possible with statism.

""Lets" is the real probem."

How do you "not let" the government to become tyrannical? How do you keep the government "limited" when it crosses those limits?

Once you give the smallest government the smallest "authority", meaning state monopoly on violence, there is no stopping the government from becoming a tyrannical leviathan over time.

No government ever becomes smaller or more limited through any democratic or political means. Never happened in history.

All governments always get bigger, more powerful and more tyrannical over time. Till they collapse.

Government is the problem, not the solution to anything. Not crime, not war, nothing.

Our schedules for time on FecesBook conflict. I'm going to limit my interactions with you to only once or twice a day.

If you are smart, you will write your comments in a local text editor. Then, when you have composed and PROOFREAD your text before you copy and paste. FecesBook limits comments to 8,000 characters.

This will allow you to get your thoughts together and not have to do add on additional posts.

I take my time when conversing about conflicting ideologies and logical conclusions. I have on occasion spent up to four hours composing an 8,000 character posts, because I'm dealing with an emotional knee jerk reactionary jerk.

I ask questions. I ask a lot of questions. I ask those questions to challenge ambiguities, unsubstantiated claims, faulty conclusions, and unexamined opinions. Opinions unexamined by the opinion spewer.

As I pointed out, I also keep a public archive record of such conversations. I will post that link again. The archive allows me to keep track of points not addressed.

As I previously pointed out, your focus is stuck on "what if". Mine is on "what is". You are trying to use "what if" to defend "what is."

I applaud and appreciate your longer, better thought out(?) post. Obviously that's gonna take me more time to digest and address.

[Dale Eastman]

Dale Eastman
And still no answer to the question. LOL

➽ And still no answer to the question. LOL

Sixth inquiry: Is it your intent to portray government as a protector of the people?

Dale Eastman
If you cannot answer simple questions your "what if" therory of Anarchy will never be excepted by the General Population that does and will ask, how will things like Murder be dealt with in the Anarchy World?

You are the one with the fixation of "WHAT MAY BE."

I have publicly archived this discussion.

This makes it very easy for me to review this discussion.

I cannot, NOT notice your absolute refusal to discuss what actually exists.
I cannot, NOT notice your absolute intent to support what actually exists.

Seventh inquiry: Is it your intent to portray government as a protector of the people?

[Dale Eastman]

Dale Eastman
Still have no answer to the question LOL

➽ Still have no answer to the question LOL

I asked my questions first.

So now I'll ask my question as an inverse.

Is it your intent to NOT portray government as a protector of the people?

Reminder for you and all the others reading this. I am trying to understand what your narrative and agenda is about. I am trying to understand what you are wishing to present; what you are wishing to convey. So I ask questions to get clarifications.

[Dale Eastman]

Dale Eastman
You cannot answer the question so move on.
The whole voluntary theory just like Communism falls apart when it runs into real Life.
But just for you to answer your question AGAIN the """INTENT""" is to try and find out how the Anarchist system deals with Real Crime.
You are the one trying to sell Anarchy, I am not trying to sell you anything. And if you cannot answer what should be simple questions then you are wasting your time because the masses will not buy it.
You cannot even have this discussion without trying to have some kind of authority over me LOL

➽ You cannot even have this discussion without trying to have some kind of authority over me LOL

That you believe I'm trying to have authority over you... You are just parroting terms you've heard and do not understand. I'll self-censor myself and write nothing of what I opine regarding your genealogy and ancestry. Kudos on accidentally figuring out a tiny bit of what myself and others understand, even though you are completely oblivious to that knowledge.

I have NO authority over you.

Other words for "anarchy" "anarchist" and "anarchism", because of the corruption and co-opting of those words, are "voluntary", "voluntaryist", and "voluntaryism".

In other words, no involuntary interactions. The interaction is voluntary on your part, because no gun wielding government agent is forcing you to reply to my posts. That is 100% your free will. Reply or don't. Your free will choice.

➽ I am not trying to sell you anything.

Are your friends so stupid they fall for your forked tongue?

Remember, I told you I'm archiving this discussion. This makes it VERY easy for me to scan and skim your statements for context and contradictions.

I asked you two questions in an attempt to understand and determine your position. Two questions you have absolutely refused to address. For review, those questions are:
❶ Is it your intent to portray government as a protector of the people?
❷ Is it your intent to NOT portray government as a protector of the people?

You continually focus on "WHAT IF."
You continually refuse to focus on "WHAT IS."

The "what if" is about "anarchy," this is definitely NOT "what is," because "what is," is government. Thus by context of all your comments in this discussion, You are trying to sell people on "what is." You are trying to sell people on government.

Thus I have now made a claim about you. You are for government. You are trying to portray government as a protector of the people. You are trying to sell government as the protector of the people.

In case you forgot my post that initiated this discussion:

I live for comments like yours.
Government is a criminal syndicate that extorts people for money and control. PROVE ME WRONG.

[Dale Eastman]

Dale Eastman
And still no answer to the question....
🙄

I made three claims about you. All three claims are uncontested.

"Silence is a species of conduct, and constitutes an implied representation of the existence of facts in question. When silence is of such character and under such circumstances that it would become a fraud, it will operate as an Estoppel." Carmine v. Bowen, 64 U.S. 932

Uncontested allegations are deemed admitted. You have admitted that:
You are for government;
You are trying to portray government as a protector of the people;
You are trying to sell government as the protector of the people.
So, since you are for government, you are for, and supporting, a criminal syndicate that extorts people for money and control.
So, since you are for government, you are for, and supporting, a criminal syndicate that murders people in cold blood.

Quoting OT:
➽ You live in your idea of perfect government. You come home and you find your family murdered. And the murderers are the gang called government.
How do you deal with that very real crime in your perfect statist world?

⚠⚠⚠
During the night, FBI snipers took positions around the Weaver cabin. There is no dispute about the fact that the snipers were given illegal "shoot to kill" orders. Under the law, police agents can use deadly force to defend themselves and others from imminent attack, but these snipers were instructed to shoot any adult who was armed and outside the cabin, regardless of whether the adult posed a threat or not. The next morning, an FBI agent shot and wounded Randy Weaver. A few moments later, the same agent shot Weaver's wife in the head as she was standing in the doorway of her home holding a baby in her arms. The FBI snipers had not yet announced their presence and had not given the Weavers an opportunity to peacefully surrender.
By Timothy Lynch, published in National Review Online, Aug. 21, 2002.  Cato Institute
⛔⛔⛔

You are attempting to sell a criminal syndicate that murders people in cold blood.

➽ Murder along with other real crimes [...] happen every single day all over the world and if your systems has no answers for how that will be delt with you are going to have a very hard time selling it to the masses.

City Fines Elderly Man $30,000, Threaten to Steal His Home Because His Grass Was Too Tall.
https://thefreethoughtproject.com/city-fines-man-30k-tall-grass-forclose-home/

You are attempting to sell government that steals from the Elderly to the masses.

[Dale Eastman]

Dale Eastman
I am not selling what we have now the question is to you. The question is in your Anarchist World how are these very real crimes delt with?
You gave a nice list of how you believe they should NOT be delt with and the things that can go wrong, but the question that you cannot answer is how SHOULD they be delt with?
You are the one that cannot come up with someway of doing that without someone having the authority to use force.

➽ I am not selling what we have now

Yes. You are. Because you are defending what currently exists. I'll make allowance for this lie of yours, provable to any thinking person who has read the last exchanges, because you are lying to yourself. RTFS.

➽ You are the one that cannot come up with someway of doing that without someone having the authority to use force.

Nowhere in our discussion did you use the word "authority" until I did. Congratulations on being a human parrot.

➽ cannot answer is how SHOULD they be delt with

You are not a very good reader. I specifically answered that question. I'll post the link to my public archive of this discussion again so you can find it easier than scrolling Fecesbook. That's if you are smart enough to unmunge the address.
synapticsparks*info/dialog/index.php?topic=888.msg15219#msg15219 Change * to .

➽ The question is in your Anarchist World how are these very real crimes delt with?

The question is in your Statist-Government World, how are these very real crimes dealt with? It's spelled "Dealt". Please stop hurting my eyes.

⚠⚠⚠
During the night, FBI snipers took positions around the Weaver cabin. There is no dispute about the fact that the snipers were given illegal "shoot to kill" orders. Under the law, police agents can use deadly force to defend themselves and others from imminent attack, but these snipers were instructed to shoot any adult who was armed and outside the cabin, regardless of whether the adult posed a threat or not. The next morning, an FBI agent shot and wounded Randy Weaver. A few moments later, the same agent shot Weaver's wife in the head as she was standing in the doorway of her home holding a baby in her arms. The FBI snipers had not yet announced their presence and had not given the Weavers an opportunity to peacefully surrender.
By Timothy Lynch, published in National Review Online, Aug. 21, 2002.  Cato Institute
⛔⛔⛔

Why are you ignoring the reality of that Cato Institute quote?

[Dale Eastman]

Dale Eastman Still just bitching about the problem, but still no answer to how the problem will be handled???

Now you are just being disingenuous.
I specifically answered that question.
Last post I specifically gave you a link to where I answered that question.

However, to give you some leeway, and to make sure I correctly understand "your" problem, (the one you find such an intractable problem) I have reviewed the discussion again.

From that review, this is where you first challenged me regarding "your" problem.
➽ OK so in your no Government Utopia how are Murders and Thiefs dealt with?

"OK so in your [...] Government Utopia how are Murders and Thiefs dealt with?"
Especially if it's government doing the murdering and stealing?

You ignored this very same point when another person challenged you on this point.
Ignore or refuse to address this point and you clinch the conclusion that you are a statist the condones government murdering and stealing.

synapticsparks#info/dialog/index.php?topic=888.0
Change # to . to unmunge.

[Dale Eastman]

Dale Eastman Challenging the question or point is not Answering the question.
"Government Is Like Fire, a Dangerous Servant and a Fearful Master"

➽ Challenging the question or point is not Answering the question.

The question was answered. You are still being disingenuous.
I'm beginning to think your electroencephalogram looks like a set of Venetian Blinds.

➽ "Government Is Like Fire, a Dangerous Servant and a Fearful Master"

If you think your government is ANY sort of servant, then your government school brainwashing was a success.

➽ You keep bringing up stuff we can both agree on.

What we do not seem to agree on is that "Government is evil and must be gotten rid of."

You are, in essence, making excuses for why government must continue to exist.
You are, in your words, supporting a criminal syndicate that extorts people for money and control.

synapticsparks⚿info/dialog/index.php?topic=888.msg
Change ⚿ to . to unmunge the address.