MD

[Dale Eastman]

MD, LD
'Scuse me, I couldn't help overhearing your discussion.
Voluntarism seems to be an unknown and anarchism has been co-opted and its meaning corrupted.

Posted these words:
http://www.synapticsparks.info/dialog/index.php?topic=691.0

ive been there, and real jail. I grew up poor in Ft Smith, so all of this yes I agree with you because Ive experienced it first hand.
My husband and I have talked about this until blue in the face!
What Ive noticed is a lot of people want freedom from choice, like children. They dont like the idea of sinply existing, so they subscribe to religion or police or rules, whatever makes them feel “safe”.
Im going to have to agree with you that voluntarism cannot be anarchy, bc in anarchy i can do whatever I want to you and you family, and couldn’t care less about your philosophies. I imagine this existing in a world between anarchy and libertarianism. Everyone needs leaders, on every basic level, or there is no organization, and work doesnt get done, so people wont eat.
Dont get me wrong, I dont fear the idea of chaos, i dont assume everyone would be barbaric and malevolent, but you’ve got to all have a consensus on who is amicable enough to orchestrate events- farming, town gatherings, safety, training.
So why I initially asked Lisa that question- I believe a democracy feels natural, especially in a world of no rulers, but is there a possibility for a board, or small gvmt that we can overthrow at any time? Like the manager youve had thats laid back and works WITH you, not just overlooking.
I consider those people more or less teachers.

I am really containing myself, but unless youve been to jail, dont compare it to the public school system..
My husband and I can tell all of you what thats really like, and thats the actual reality of slavery in this country. Most people in jail lose their minds, you gotta go inside yourself and get to solitary. Most people dont want that. They control the food, the lights, the temp, your regime, they keep you docile, thats slavery. Its not at all to be compared to public schools. Yeah I hated achool too, but I pay taxes when I dont have children, so that other people can have the opportunity to learn for free. You know school is a safe place for a lot of children, they get real help there, like I did. No strings attached. Poor kids dont see it as a bad place to go. Its better than home.🤷🏻‍♀️🙏
Remember in anarachy, we must consider ALL sides, even sides and mentalities you may not even know exisit!
Know your enemy; respect your enemy.

➽ What Ive noticed is a lot of people want freedom from choice, like children. They dont like the idea of sinply existing, so they subscribe to religion or police or rules, whatever makes them feel “safe”.

Agreed... With addition.

Old age and CRS suck. It was decades ago, (and I was still an indoctrinated statist) when I read something that basically stated that people don't like to think. Thus, when they choose the tribe they like, the tribe's "beliefs" tell people how to dress, what to wear, what to get mad at, and presently what to click the like buttons on.

When opinions are stated as facts by "them" as in not me, nor those I believe think like me, I ask questions about the beliefs publicly opined. It's part of Socratic Method/ Socratic Questions.

Him➽ You idiots are really out there saying the most stupid shit.

Me➽ I'm one of those "idiots".  And my experience is that people who make statements such as you just did, NEVER finish discussions with me. I ask questions of their claims, just as I will do with your claims. When my questions expose inconsistent and/or magical thinking, then that person goes coward and goes away.

Ghosted. He did NOT respond. I get that a lot. I've even shut up a bona fide Bronx lawyer by doing this.

➽ Im going to have to agree with you that voluntarism cannot be anarchy, bc in anarchy i can do whatever I want to you and you family, and couldn’t care less about your philosophies.

Sorry. I'm going to have to call you out on your use of the corrupted meaning of the word. So, unfortunately, I see that sentence as you spouting your indoctrination. And it has been some tough work purging myself of such indoctrinations. To refine the point a little further, Anarchy means no ruling class.

Dissecting your statement, you have implied that without a ruling class, you are going to go out and violate some innocent's life, liberty, or property. In essence, you are claiming that you need a ruling class to tell you what is or is not a criminal act against a fellow human.

To sharpen an even finer point on the issue... Suppose magic does exist and when you wake up tomorrow there is no ruling class and no ruling class's laws against murder. Are you going to go kill somebody?

People who are not going to commit murder don't need laws against murder, and people who commit murder ignore laws against murder. See the point? Laws against murders are meaningless.

➽ Everyone needs leaders, on every basic level, or there is no organization, and work doesnt get done, so people wont eat.

This is again an indoctrinated statist idea. I get the sense that you are new to shedding your statist indoctrination. Regardless, I don't take it personal... I just try to stay focused on the thoughts, idea's, and concepts.

As worded in my meme pic: Rulers Rule, Leaders Lead. What's the difference? Rulers will have you caged or killed if you refuse to obey their edicts. Leaders will not. This exposes another act of statist legerdemain... Why do leaders need men with guns to make you follow them?

I don't need a leader. I lead myself. By being honest and consistent, I have found myself as a leader of my peers. Note I wrote "peers" not "subordinates". You claim: Everyone needs leaders, or people won't eat? Really? How does that work? Who should I be following so I can eat?

➽ you’ve got to all have a consensus on who is amicable enough to orchestrate events- farming, town gatherings, safety, training.

I beg to differ. You've got to have people smart enough to learn whenever and from whatever. That means learning things like the Game Theory computer model of "Tit For Two Tats' which shows mathematically why co-operation nets a greater good for all involved. Order out of chaos if you will.

I have had help from total strangers in my youth. I have helped total strangers in my life. It has been my choice to help. So some more learning. I assume many people have made observations about "that person is an asshole". So there is a categorizing of assholes and non-assholes in any person's life. Dunno how any adult could have missed that experience. The failure to be taught critical thinking skills, by government schools, means people don't take their cognitions to the next step: Which one am I?

➽ I believe a democracy feels natural, especially in a world of no rulers, but is there a possibility for a board, or small gvmt that we can overthrow at any time?

You've contradicted yourself in one compound sentence. Perhaps you and I don't have an agreement as to what "democracy" means.

⚠ Democracy (Greek: δημοκρατία, dēmokratiā, from dēmos 'people' and kratos 'rule') is a form of government in which the people have the authority to choose their governing legislation.⛔

Democracy means "rulers". "A board, or small gvmt" means "rulers".

➽ unless youve been to jail, dont compare it to the public school system

Sorry. You've created a Tango rich environment.

➽ They control the food, the lights, the temp, your regime, they keep you docile,

And school doesn't "control the food, the lights, the temp, your regime"? And school doesn't train you to obey? When to use the toilet, when to go outside, when to go inside, what to pay attention to, what to change your attention to even though you were enjoying and learning the last topic you were made to pay attention to? May I suggest you look up "Prussian Method"? It's the indoctrination and training to be a good, docile submitizen.

➽ Yeah I hated achool too, but I pay taxes when I dont have children, so that other people can have the opportunity to learn for free.

No. You don't. You pay taxes because if you don't, men with guns will come take your property.

➽ Know your enemy;

My website is no more anti-'government' than 'government' is anti-human.

Jesus christ, yeah Id love to continue but you have dissected every point, and yes I have rebuttals for that.

No I would bot harm anyone, as I mentioned, people have an idea that everyone would go barbaric, and thats just not true. Its like people that feel they need to be in church to stay sin free, “what are you afraid youll do?” All Im saying in anarchy is- how could we enforce those who want a free for all to agree to the premise of voluntaryism? It would seem voluntaryism would keep an anarchist society safe from some enclaves(slavery) but if theres no foundation, who would agree to it? No one has to comply, im thinking about the masses, again not ME.

all I was commentating on is that you were quite dramatic in your little schpeal about how you were incarcerated when youve never been to jail. Also you came to these terms not by living it. ✌️

You dissected it all but didnt listen, as some of that I already said.🤦🏻‍♀️

If you wanna change the world, you gotta work on your persuasion techniques, because people dont like being pushed into a wall about how YOU think theyre wrong. HELP them see the light then.👍

➽ If you wanna change the world, you gotta work on your persuasion techniques, because people dont like being pushed into a wall about how YOU think theyre wrong. HELP them see the light then.👍

I will spend time attempting to figure out what, specifically, I did to push you into a wall because I think you're wrong.

Wait a moment while I review our discussion please.
{Scrolls up}{Reads}{Scrolls down}
Thanks for waiting.

I addressed nine points of your words, specifically quoting the words.

I agreed with your observation that people don't like expending the brain sugar to make choices. To make choices, one needs to know things. Knowing things, that is, learning, takes effort. I will label that observation as you observing the intellectually lazy.

I pointed out that I get ghosted when I examine "beliefs". I will not back away from exposing inconsistent and/or magical thinking, that is; beliefs that have no logic. Indoctrinated thinking is often inconsistent and illogical. And all too often, such beliefs are beliefs that lies are truths.

You stated an opinion about what you believe anarchy means. You were and are in error. What your opinion was about, is not what anarchy "IS", but a POSSIBLE event under anarchy. Your words were, and I quote, "i can do whatever I want to you and you family, and couldn’t care less about your philosophies." You appear to have failed to see that what you stated is a POSSIBLE event under any type of government. As you painted the picture, you painted it as a "bad" thing about anarchy. You err in your assumption of causality.

You asserted: "Everyone needs leaders[...]" And you expounded that I might starve without a leader, though not in those words. I find such a comment errant on its face... But I did challenge you to provide support for that concept you opined. A presentation missing from your replies.

You claimed you don't fear chaos. I left that as not challengable because I had no proof that you do fear chaos. I'm pondering if my opinion of you is correct.

Then you go into what you believe is required to keep order... Cuz... Else... Chaos & Starvation.

You contradicted yourself and I jumped on that immediately.

You complained about the equivocation of incarceration in jail with incarceration in a government indoctrination center... Commonly known as a public school. I presented why that equate is not in error, using the very points you provided.

I challenged your belief that you pay taxes for supporting the government indoctrination centers willingly. To be accurate, you could very well feel good about paying the extortion... (And it is provably extortion, try not paying it), But as long as the indoctrination holds... You will pay willingly and believe you are paying willingly.

➽ Jesus christ, yeah Id love to continue but you have dissected every point, and yes I have rebuttals for that.

I'm sorry. Was I supposed to ignore every point?

➽ bc in anarchy i can do whatever I want to you and you family, and couldn’t care less about your philosophies.
➽ No I would bot harm anyone, as I mentioned, people have an idea that everyone would go barbaric, and thats just not true.

You did not present the first as what "others" might believe. Thus you gave an appearance of being "anti" anarchy... Which is statism; Pro- government; Pro- rulers and ruling class.

➽ Its like people that feel they need to be in church to stay sin free, “what are you afraid youll do?”

Since I don't know what I don't know, I would have to admit Agnostic, though I identify Atheist because Theist don't know what they don't know, but believe otherwise.

➽ All Im saying in anarchy is- how could we enforce those who want a free for all to agree to the premise of voluntaryism?

I'm translating your words "those who want a free for all" into "criminals". A criminal is one who initiates force and violence against another; A criminal is one initiates a violation of another's life, liberty, or property. Defensive use of force and violence is not a criminal act, regardless of what the criminal syndicate called government proclaims.

Who, specifically, is this "we"?
There is you. There is I. And there is about 340 million other individual entities. There is no "we" as you are painting the scene.

⚠ "Reification (also known as concretism, hypostatization, or the fallacy of misplaced concreteness) is a fallacy of ambiguity, when an abstraction (abstract belief or hypothetical construct) is treated as if it were a concrete real event or physical entity. In other words, it is the error of treating something that is not concrete, such as an idea, as a concrete thing. A common case of reification is the confusion of a model with reality: "the map is not the territory"." ⛔

The proper question is, What could you; What would you do, to protect you and yours from from criminals attempting to harm you?

And the answer is three words: "Actions Have Consequences."

Why is it the the locations with the strictest gun control laws have the highest crime rates? Because the criminal syndicate called government doesn't want you to have the means and knowledge to protect yourself. So one of the delusions to be shed is the false belief that "government" will protect you. The police have NO DUTY TO PROTECT. Would you like the link to the 1855 SCOTUS case that says this? And there are many more.

➽ It would seem voluntaryism would keep an anarchist society safe from some enclaves(slavery) but if theres no foundation, who would agree to it?

I had to look up "enclave." Seems to me you're trying to make a point of territorial borders. I don't get the point you are attempting to make. So I'm going to just ignore the word for now. Which means I have no comment on anything prior to "who would agree to it [voluntaryism].

You still seem to misunderstand anarchy, voluntaryism, & NO RULERS.
Agree or don't. THAT doesn't matter.
You don't even have to agree to not initiate violence against others. Just be sure you understand the consequences of your actions if you do initiate violence.

➽ No one has to comply, im thinking about the masses, again not ME.

What makes you think anyone has to comply with not initiating force now?

Consequences to actions are not allowed right now because of the criminal syndicate called government. And government has excused itself from having any duty to protect you.

➽ all I was commentating on is that you were quite dramatic in your little schpeal about how you were incarcerated when youve never been to jail. Also you came to these terms not by living it.

Objection. You DO NOT KNOW if I've been to jail.

So you get my standard spiel for those who claim they can read my mind: Since you are clairvoyant, private message me with the winning lottery numbers and the date for a huge jackpot. I'll split it 50/50 with you.

Okay... So you were jailed. So what?
Am I to think lesser of greater of you because of this? It's none of my business, and that is an honorable answer to my question; Did you actually violate another person's life, liberty, or property; or did you only violate a politician's opinion?

➽ You dissected it all but didnt listen, as some of that I already said.🤦🏻‍♀️

Maybe I didn't, maybe I did... Or maybe you didn't quite present what you intended. So, I won't deny the possibility that I didn't "get" your point(s).

FYI: Per my FB notifications, I estimate I spent 3.75 hours on this reply.

➽ Know your enemy;
My enemy is lack of knowledge.